The Enigmatic Music of Ahsoka: Inside the Mind of the Composers, Dave Filoni's Vision and the Epic Rise of Thrawn

Summary

Ahsoka is a culmination of Dave Filoni's Star Wars work, drawing from his past creations and expanding the Star Wars universe.

Kevin Kiner, the esteemed composer for Star Wars animation, has masterfully crafted music for more than 200 episodes of various Star Wars animated series. Among these impressive works is his contribution to Ahsoka.

In a captivating discussion, the Kiners delve into their innovative approach of seamlessly blending both classical and contemporary music in Ahsoka. With invaluable input from Filoni and a deep understanding of the story's essence, they skillfully fulfill the musical requirements of this remarkable series.

Ahsoka revolutionizes the Star Wars franchise by seamlessly blending animation with live action. The highly anticipated eight-episode series, exclusively penned by the brilliant mind behind Star Wars Rebels and Star Wars: The Bad Batch, Dave Filoni, serves as the pinnacle of his remarkable twenty-year contribution to shaping the Star Wars universe. Filoni, known for co-creating the beloved character Ahsoka Tano for the animated film Star Wars: The Clone Wars, draws from his extensive body of work, pushing the boundaries of the Star Wars galaxy both literally and metaphorically - a feat that would undoubtedly make his mentor, George Lucas, proud.

The involvement of Kevin Kiner, a seasoned composer from Star Wars: The Clone Wars, further solidifies the authenticity and magnificence of Ahsoka. With a vast repertoire that surpasses any other composer in the Star Wars franchise, Kiner's music has graced over 200 episodes of the animated series. Additionally, Kiner has collaborated closely with his talented children, Sean and Deana, who have written and performed unforgettable musical moments throughout the series, leaving an indelible mark on the hearts of fans.

Kevin, Sean, and Deana Kiner sat down with Screen Rant to discuss their efforts in "de-geeking" their music, pushing the boundaries of the Star Wars musical language, and more. Please note that this conversation took place during the 2023 WGA and SAG-AFTRA strikes, and the show being discussed in this interview owes its existence to the hard work and dedication of the writers and actors from both unions. To ensure clarity and conciseness, certain edits have been made to this interview, but don't worry, you can watch the full version on the Screen Rant Plus YouTube channel.

Kevin, Sean & Deana Kiner On Ahsoka

Screen Rant: Kevin, pound for pound, you must have done more music for Star Wars than anyone, which is wild to think about.

Kevin Kiner suggests that Gordy Haab is perhaps the only composer who comes close to matching his extensive work in the industry. Kiner recalls a panel discussion they had a few years back, where he had already completed over 100 hours of composition while Haab hadn't even reached the 50-hour mark. Furthermore, Kiner mentions that he has continued to compose for several more years since that time, even dedicating five hours solely to the character Ahsoka. It is astonishing to Kiner that despite having a vast library of pre-existing music for the show, there are still many viewers who have never been exposed to animated projects. This dynamic prompts him to consider if and how he should incorporate established music in contrast to creating fresh compositions.

Kevin Kiner: No, the themes from Rebels are not played exactly as they were. We aim to progress them forward and cleverly reference them in some way. So it's not simply Ezra's theme... I can't recall what details I am allowed to discuss. Has episode six aired?

Yes, Thrawn and Ezra are present.

Kevin Kiner: Yeah, I played Ezra's theme quite intensely in that moment. It was one of the rare occasions when I incorporated his theme, and it was absolutely incredible.

Deana Kiner: The credit truly goes to Dave Filoni for providing us with valuable guidance. He helped us understand exactly when it was appropriate to use someone's theme. He would say, "No, this isn't the right time or place for it. They are in a different phase now. You need to recognize that they have evolved since 11 years ago. Their surroundings have changed, as have their emotions and experiences. They are going through something entirely different." His input was extremely beneficial in preventing us from making that mistake.

Kevin Kiner: He needed to un-geek us. We would say, "Let's work on Sabine's theme!" and he would respond, "Not at the moment. Focus on portraying her emotions; that's your responsibility." Then we would realize, "Oh, right. I've been doing this for 40 years; I should already know that." However, we were extremely excited about incorporating the themes.

Sean Kiner: The scene's requirements served as our guide to incorporate the themes and melodies. The emphasis was always on the story, not just on the theme and melody.

I would have almost mistaken it for the opposite. For example, in episode five when "Burying the Dead" was playing, I couldn't tell if it was Dave Filoni's idea, thinking it would fit well, or if it was all of you. It's intriguing.

Deana Kiner: Approaching that scene was actually quite frightening because Dave had already composed the music and had the concept for the entire episode. We were wondering how we could surpass such a renowned piece of music. What could we possibly do?

Kevin Kiner praised Dave for not falling into the trap of temporary music that many people in the industry use. Temporary music can come from various sources, such as popular movies like Prometheus. This practice can be problematic because directors may become attached to the temporary music used during the editing process. However, Dave does not have this issue. As Dave frequently says, such temporary music wasn't written specifically for their story and holds a different meaning in a different context. He prefers music that is composed specifically for their story, and he is highly appreciated for that.

You mentioned "Burying the Dead" and he immediately recognized references to both "Burying the Dead" and "The Siege of Mandalore". We didn't directly copy anything, but rather, subtly alluded to these elements. However, he instantly understood what we were trying to convey when we played it for him. It was a truly amazing experience.

Sean and Deana, I'm unaware of your ages when you began collaborating on these projects, but I can only imagine that as Ahsoka, Ezra, Sabine, and these characters have developed in the shows, you've also undergone personal growth. Has this influenced how you approach composing music for them?

Sean Kiner: I've been composing music with Kevin for over a decade now. Working on the Rebels project was where I truly delved into composition. It feels like the beginning of my journey, and it's truly an honor to revisit it in this live action format.

Deana Kiner: I also grew up with Star Wars, particularly during the Clone Wars era. I was around 14 when it was released, so I've grown alongside these characters and themes. I have to acknowledge that nostalgia plays a role in my job. However, I also recognize the need to evolve the characters and progress the narrative. We're in a different place now, aiming to convey a new message and evoke different emotions. Ultimately, it's about listening to my instincts and knowing what needs to be done.

Kevin Kiner's Ahsoka theme is a prime example of their talent. The theme draws inspiration from the Tales of the Jedi, specifically the birth of Ahsoka episode and the subsequent three episodes centered around her. They were able to create a variation of the Ahsoka theme, which now serves as the opening for the end credits of Ahsoka. While the melody from Tales of the Jedi does make an appearance in later parts of the end credits, the beginning showcases a fresh take on the theme, characterized by a Ronin groove. This Ronin motif supports Ahsoka's Ronin melody.

Do you believe that "Igyah Kuh," the one being listened to by Sabine in the premiere, is a composition that could have been in a Star Wars production during the era of George Lucas? Alternatively, does it reflect the evolution in the perception of the Star Wars sound brought about by creative individuals like Ludwig Göransson and Nicholas Britell?

Deana Kiner believes that there has been a significant expansion. Previously, the emphasis was on creating alien-sounding source music or cantina songs that were incredibly unique and different. However, now there is the freedom to create straightforward punk or rock music without any constraints.

Deana Kiner: Absolutely. It's a fantasy. We have the freedom to play around and delve into it, which was a significant aspect of it. At first, when we started working on that composition, our mindset was to make it sound alien, distinctive, and unconventional. However, we soon realized that the ultimate goal was to create something that really captivates and excites the audience.

Kevin Kiner: And you know what? I am convinced that even in a distant galaxy, people will still be enjoying the music of Led Zeppelin and The Ramones.

Sean Kiner: With that being said, George Lucas is a true innovator, so he would definitely have been receptive to the idea.

Kevin Kiner: Actually, during my initial meeting with him, or maybe it was the second one in either 2006 or 2007, he unexpectedly presented me with a CD of hip-hop music. I've recounted this story multiple times: he wanted to incorporate it into Clone Wars. In the room, there were about eight individuals who strongly disagreed, advising against it. However, as soon as George walked in, everyone fell silent, leaving me to be the one to express to him that it wasn't a good idea. But that's just how he operated.

I complied with his instructions, reluctantly, but I also had a secret weapon that fused elements of hip-hop sounds and rhythms with the power of an orchestra. I had to show him the one he requested first. It was a strange situation because you don't want to carry out a foolish idea that could cost you your job, but the boss insisted on this experimental concept. I use the term "bad idea" loosely because he had a genuine passion for pushing boundaries.

Deana Kiner: One of his greatest strengths lies in his ability to constantly surround himself with exceptional collaborators. Particularly, his partnership with Dave Filoni and his collaboration in sound design with Matt Wood. He consistently seeks out these immensely talented individuals, and just to be considered among them is an incredible honor.

Kevin Kiner: Clearly, his appreciation for composers is exceptional.

Did you incorporate elements from previous themes in subtle ways? Some people mentioned that the music in the scenes with Sabine's Howler reminded them of the Loth-cat or Loth-wolf music. Additionally, the Purrgil scene at the end of episode 5 was compared to "Journey Into the Star Cluster".

Kevin Kiner: It was totally unintentional, no doubt about it.

Deana Kiner: Specifically in those instances, animals play a vital role in Star Wars. They greatly contribute to creating an atmosphere and communicating to the audience the essence of the Force and the significance of nature in general. The reason these instances may sound similar is because we view them from a perspective that considers it magical. Even when animals are simply being themselves and existing, they possess an inherent magic. This is how we approach this aspect of the Force.

Sean Kiner explained that the idea of the hyperspace jump with the Purrgil, or space whales, originated from a section in the end credits. Initially, the end credits were shorter, but they gradually expanded as more content was added. Once the graphics were incorporated, they were impressed by the energetic depiction of traveling through the stars, prompting them to create a celestial motif. Although it was not initially intended to be part of the show, they were so fond of it that it became a recurring theme and played a significant role in the scenes involving the whales.

Kevin Kiner, the composer, acknowledged that achieving success with a composition is not always guaranteed. However, when they realized the significance of the motif mentioned by Sean, he insisted on using it beyond just the credits, ensuring its presence in the show itself.

I have been trying to suppress my own nerdy side, but I have a question about Thrawn. I have been a fan of Thrawn since the old Expanded Universe books. He is such a complex and profound thinker, yet the theme surrounding him is quite simple. I am curious about the reasoning behind choosing this theme to represent him.

Sean Kiner: In Rebels, the concept of Thrawn's theme came about when Dave suggested that we attempt to compose it on an organ, introducing organ music into the Star Wars universe. This suggestion was highly thrilling, and we proceeded to listen to numerous classical organ compositions for inspiration. The essence behind the theme is essentially imagining "What if Moriarty existed in a world without Sherlock?" and how terrifying that would be.

He also perceives himself as a sort of hero. He has a deep appreciation for art and culture. He is a complex individual, so we wanted to avoid making him entirely [minor]. Thus, there are elements of significance intertwined with his theme. However, as for his introduction and the progression of his theme, we may need to discuss it later. Deana, would you like to discuss his introductory scene?

Deana Kiner: This brings us back to the moment when we were determined to have his theme play right there. We were like, "Thrawn's theme. Let's do it."

Kevin and Deana Kiner collaborated on creating the music for the scene, carefully incorporating arpeggiations and other elements. However, as they discussed it with Dave, he emphasized the importance of the moment and the scene, suggesting that the music should be more focused on enhancing these aspects.

Sean Kiner: The music is not the focal point of the scene.

Deana Kiner: Precisely. When we reviewed the situation, we realized that since many individuals haven't encountered this person, it is crucial to convey the message that "This individual is extremely dangerous and malevolent." We needed to give it more significance. We had to instill fear in the audience with just the sound of a single note. That's how we developed our approach. We began distorting the organ and exploring various methods to create a more atmospheric effect that would align with the imposing presence of his ship and make you sense the presence of this destroyer.

Kevin Kiner believes that the essence of the scene already encompassed many aspects. The challenge lies in the fact that John Williams established a musical universe in Star Wars that tends to draw attention to itself with its distinctive qualities. The music is often bold, melodious, and intricate, continuously offering new elements. It is crucial for Star Wars to maintain its distinctive essence, but there are moments when the music becomes excessive. Dave, with his deep understanding of the Star Wars universe, skillfully identifies those instances and advises against them. Dave's insightful explanations provide valuable insights into the thought process behind Star Wars, even if they are not directly related to the specific scene at hand. The scene being referred to was immensely significant to both Dave and the rest of the team, resulting in several revisions until the ideal balance was reached. This balance aimed to support the scene without overshadowing it.

What would you say is the biggest difference in terms of composing for this versus composing for the animated series?

Kevin Kiner believes that the main factor contributing to the high quality of our work is the ample time we have to perfect it. We are fortunate to have a renowned live orchestra based in LA, comprising the very same talented musicians who perform for major motion pictures. The exceptional skill and immense passion of these individuals towards both our music and the Star Wars franchise are truly unparalleled.

Sean Kiner shares an interesting anecdote regarding the orchestra's involvement. Although they were not given the chance to preview any visuals, during one particular moment in episode 105, when the Vader theme resounded, a collective gasp could be heard from the orchestra members. This led to animated conversations among them. Furthermore, it is worth mentioning that we have had the privilege of having a live orchestra for every single episode, adding a dynamic and authentic touch to our compositions.

They would approach us after the recording and engage in conversations about the music. This led to the formation of a relationship not only with the individuals, but also with their musical abilities. Through this connection, we discovered their strengths, which inspired us to compose specifically for them in subsequent episodes. The entire season had not been written at the time of the first episode's recording. This realization sparked our desire to create pieces specifically tailored to the lead viola player or the concertmaster. This dynamic was truly fascinating and set the show apart from animated productions.

While I understand that asking for favorites is not appropriate, I am curious if there were any new motifs, themes, or creative approaches that each of you found particularly enjoyable or exciting on the show.

Deana Kiner: I learned how to play flute for it.

No way.

Kevin Kiner: Deana’s playing all the exotic flutes.

Deana Kiner: Not all of them. There was some stuff where we need a for real, for real professional.

Deana Kiner, the talented musician behind the opening exotic flute music in every episode, shares her journey of inspiration and experimentation. She wanted to create a sound that resembled a group of flutes playing together, and as she implemented this idea, she realized how cool it sounded and expanded upon it. Throughout the season, Deana explored various types of flutes, sharpening her playing skills along the way. Although she admits that she still has room for improvement, she utilized her strengths effectively. Deana expresses great satisfaction with the outcome, particularly highlighting her experience playing the alto flute for the Howler's movements. The opportunity to experiment with different melodies brought her much joy.

Kevin Kiner: Personally, I have three favorite new themes. There may be more than three, but the ones that stand out to me are Baylan's theme and Morgan's theme. Baylan's theme is absolutely fantastic. I feel a strong connection to it. When we first hear Morgan's theme, it has a familiar Williams sound to it, yet it feels fresh. These are the themes that I really love.

Sean Kiner: I agree. Working on Baylan's theme was an interesting experience for me because it allowed me to incorporate a piano sound into the Star Wars universe. It's grand, powerful, and has a touch of classical elegance. We used a Rachmaninoff voicing to create a variation of the melody called Dias Irae. This melody has an ancient medieval association with death and the end of things in film and storytelling. We then combined it with an orchestral arrangement that had a heavy metal sensibility. All these elements came together beautifully.

Deana Kiner: We’re so happy [with] the way that it plays with Shin’s theme in particular. The way that we get to have their interaction, musically, is so cool to play with.

About Ahsoka

Ahsoka embarks on a mission to uncover the mounting danger posed by Grand Admiral Thrawn, as she ventures alongside her loyal comrades from the Rebellion era, Sabine Wren and Hera Syndulla of the Ghost crew. Together, they diligently pursue this familiar menace while simultaneously searching for their long-lost Jedi companion, Ezra Bridger.

The Ahsoka season finale will be released on October 3rd on Disney+.