Unveiling the Unseen: An Exclusive Interview with Cocoon's Developer on Intense Boss Fights, Visual Artistry, Melodic Masterpieces, and Beyond

In September, Geometric Interactive, an indie studio founded by game designer Jeppe Carlsen known for Limbo and Inside, released its debut puzzle game. Titled Cocoon, this mind-bending game explores interconnected worlds that serve as both distinctive environments and physical objects that can be manipulated to solve puzzles. Since its launch, Cocoon has received significant acclaim and positive feedback.

Our website recently had the opportunity to interview Carlsen and the rest of Geometric Interactive's creative team regarding the development of this innovative puzzle adventure. The following transcript has been edited for the sake of clarity and conciseness.

Q: Could you please introduce yourself and share your favorite puzzle game, excluding Cocoon?

Jeppe Carlsen: I'll go first. My favorite game of all time is Ocarina of Time, even though it may sound like a cliché answer. It's difficult to define a puzzle game, but for me, Ocarina of Time holds a special place. It resonated with me at the perfect age and served as my introduction to the world of Nintendo. Prior to that, I grew up with Commodore and Amiga, and later transitioned to PC gaming. When I eventually got my hands on a Nintendo 64 and Ocarina of Time, it completely blew my mind. The game offered a unique blend of adventure and puzzle-solving on a scale I had never experienced before. So, I would consider it a puzzle game as well. That's my choice. By the way, I'm Jeppe, the game designer and game director at Geometric Interactive.

Erwin Kho: Hi, I'm Erwin, the Art Director and Art Lead for Cocoon. It took me a while to decide, as I'm not a big video game player, especially when it comes to puzzle games. However, Fez really stood out for me and I thoroughly enjoyed it. The indie game scene was gaining recognition at that time and Fez's unique approach of incorporating a third dimension into a 2D pixel graphic style for world exploration was incredibly enjoyable. It was amazing to see how they brought a fresh perspective to the medium.

Jakob Schmid: Hey, I'm Jakob. I worked as the audio lead and programmer for Cocoon. Although my initial choice was Braid, I decided to go with Lemmings as my favorite puzzle game. I have fond childhood memories of playing it. Lemmings is a fantastic game with adorable characters that you need to rescue. It holds a special place in my heart.

Q: Without spoiling too much, how would you describe Cocoon to gamers who have yet to hear about the title?

Kho is a game where you discover orbs that contain entire worlds. Within these worlds, you uncover even more worlds. It's not easy to explain, as the experience of playing Cocoon clarifies its concept. Cocoon is a challenging Sci-Fi adventure that explores the idea of nested worlds. It presents intriguing puzzles that require you to think in a new, unconventional manner. Your mind needs to adjust to this unique way of thinking, making it difficult to put into words.

Q: How did you develop the core mechanic of 'universe juggling' in Cocoon? Was it the foundation of the game or did it emerge during the development process?

Carlsen: The game was actually born out of that particular concept. Even before the company existed, it was an idea that materialized in my mind. I don't quite remember how the idea came to be, but it was purely a concept centered around gameplay. I began discussing it with Jakob and some other friends, envisioning a game where the levels themselves served as objects that could be manipulated - picked up, entered, and exited. Solving different puzzles would involve aligning these levels in specific ways.

The game project took a while to initiate, but it was an idea that persisted in my mind. Every time I revisited the idea, I would have new ideas that enhanced its greatness. The concept continued to grow and evolve over time. When Jakob and I established our company to explore this idea, I was fully prepared. Within a span of three or four months, I rapidly created numerous puzzles, primarily consisting of colors, squares, and labyrinths, to test if the conceptual thoughts could be transformed into a meaningful game. Fortunately, they did translate successfully.

The initial prototype, hopefully still preserved somewhere or recorded in videos, featured several puzzles that eventually made it into the final version of the game. While some of them underwent refinements, others remained similar to their original versions.

Kho: One of the initial puzzles introduces the concept of using the hierarchy of worlds to escape. I found it amusing when I played the prototype because I realized I needed to jump to a different level to evade the approaching barrier. It was clever and enjoyable.

Carlsen: It was interesting to compare the old prototype to the final game. However, to answer your question, the idea came first. Before anything else, even before establishing the company. When we started working on the game based on that early concept, I had no clue what the game would ultimately become. There is a significant distinction between having a mechanical idea and transforming it into the fully developed game that it eventually became. It was a different journey altogether.

Erwin played a significant role in determining the style, story, and tone of the game. The creation of these immersive worlds was beyond my initial imagination, thanks to Erwin's innovative ideas. It was truly a collaborative and iterative process to transform the initial concept of a mechanical gameplay into a complete adventure game.

Q: In Cocoon, combat does not involve traditional elements like HP or character death. The boss fights in the game are more akin to solving puzzles. How many iterations did it take to develop this unique approach to battles?

Carlsen expresses the challenges of creating bosses for the game, emphasizing their difficulty and time-consuming nature. He describes the initial boss encounter with the Wasp Queen, highlighting its simplicity and how it served as a template for future boss fights.

Realizing the lack of time available, Carlsen acknowledges the impossibility of creating the remaining bosses. He attributes this limitation to his involvement in designing other puzzles for the game and managing the complex map that integrates all the puzzles across different worlds. Ultimately, he decides not to create any more bosses.

We enlisted the talent of an exceptional game designer and programmer, Asger Strandby, who took the reins on three subsequent projects. The latest one was a unique hybrid, drawing inspiration from different team members. The development process for these games was highly iterative. For example, in the water world game, I suggested the idea of dividing the fight into two parts - the first half on the ground and the second half in the air, with the challenge of dodging bullets. However, the majority of the credit goes to Asger for his creative input. He devised a gameplay strategy where the player must bait the boss and manipulate it into striking the concealed jetpack orb.

Asger's work on the teleport boss, which allowed players to instantly change their position, served as the initial inspiration for the teleportation mechanic. This aspect of the game underwent extensive discussions and refinement. Designing a boss character is no easy task, and Asger took on the challenge independently for the final boss with four legs. Each leg had to be destroyed individually, resulting in a highly enjoyable yet complex experience.

Lots of discussions. Our goal was to establish a meaningful connection between the boss and the game world, as well as the orb ability obtained after defeating the boss. The teleporation boss fight was designed to be crystal clear. During the fight, you utilize a teleportation device, but once the boss is defeated, you acquire the teleportation ability through the orb. This creates a conceptual tie-in, allowing us to maintain coherence within the game. As for the ability to shoot bullets, your own character acts as a bullet, darting around the arena. We wanted there to be a logical explanation behind it rather than it being purely random.

Q: Cocoon has simple controls but many mechanics. How do you increase variety for players while keeping controls accessible?

Carlsen: It took a lot of thinking. I tried to find minimalist additions to the game design that would have the biggest impact. For example, the core interaction of picking up orbs and jumping into them. We also introduced a utility orb that doesn't contain a world, but can interact with the landscape.

We can attach this orb to various objects. One example is a container with legs, which I find quite fascinating. The orb acts like an eyeball that can be pulled to lead the entire creature. However, from a game design and code perspective, it still involves picking up and placing an orb. Yet, this simple interaction allows for a wide range of other possibilities. We have utilized tethered orbs as joysticks for remote controls, pulling creatures, and many other interactions.

I employ this method to maintain consistency throughout the game. It gives the game a stronger identity and makes it more intuitive. Whenever you come across an orb-shaped object, you instinctively press the button, even if it's a new object you haven't encountered before. Moreover, this minimalist approach saves time during implementation.

Q: How did you develop the overall aesthetic of Cocoon?

Kho: The aesthetic of Cocoon was heavily influenced by my previous work as a freelance 3D illustrator. I used to create vibrant, low-poly illustrations inspired by early CGI models and computer games from the 90s. Through my exploration of this style in my career, smaller studios began noticing the digital and video game aesthetic it portrayed. One of those opportunities eventually led me to connect with the team behind Cocoon.

For Cocoon, we discovered that my usual low-poly work, when spread across the entire screen, appeared empty and lacked sufficient detail. I desired to maintain a clean and minimal geometry while also achieving a polished and sophisticated feel. However, I did not want to rely on tedious texture painting in Photoshop and then mapping it onto the models. We recognized the need to create numerous diverse and unique landscapes.

To address this, I sought a method to swiftly enhance the models' level of detail without disrupting the workflow. This led us to utilize a technique known as vertex painting, which is responsible for the level of detail you see in the game. By developing our own shaders and materials, we were able to add data to the RGB channels of each vertex. This data was then translated into various textures and colors on the models, resulting in a layered effect during the painting process. This approach allowed us to create landscapes that were rich in detail and fullness, while still embodying a pleasing minimalistic aesthetic.

Q: How early in the development process did you conceive the unique insectoid/biomechanical appearance for the character and boss designs?

Kho: It was fairly early, although not immediately. The insectoid, biomechanoid aesthetic emerged from the character design itself. Initially, we had an astronaut wearing a cape in Unity, which incorporated some insectoid elements, but it primarily resembled an astronaut with a helmet coated in gold. Eventually, I became dissatisfied with this design and desired to explore more innovative possibilities.

I enhanced its slightly insect-like appearance by adding small antennas and transforming the cape into fully-formed wings. This design choice seamlessly complemented the narrative we were developing, where ideas bounced back and forth, exploring questions like "Why is this character carrying worlds on their back?" Once I achieved a character design that I was truly satisfied with, the concept of an insectoid, biomechanoid-inspired world effortlessly emerged.

Creating boss designs was a delightful task. We aimed to establish a connection between them and the main character while also giving each boss a distinctive appearance. As a result, you will notice certain elements that tie them together, while also reflecting their respective environments.

Q: How was the audio design for Cocoon approached?

Schmid: Initially, I considered handling all the audio myself, focusing on synthesizer-based music to leverage my composing skills. Inspired by the '80s Dragon Ball series, where sound effects were also synthesized, I realized that this approach could be effective for our game. Although I made some progress, it was time-consuming. Eventually, we decided to bring in talented sound designers who elevated this concept to new heights. It's worth noting that every sound in the game is synthesized and not recorded.

I had a particular focus on puzzles. Looping music in games tends to bother me, as I find it annoying. Therefore, I aimed to create a unique experience where the music never repeats. During this time, I also delved into the art of synthesizer programming. Consequently, I developed plugins that generate ambient music in real-time for all the puzzle sections. As you engage in the game, the music you hear while pondering a puzzle is randomly produced. I am extremely pleased with the outcome of this endeavor. Initially, I was a bit apprehensive. Would it even function properly? Would it be compatible with a console? However, it surpassed my expectations and brought me immense satisfaction.

Developers have made significant advancements in puzzle games, however Cocoon proves that there are still numerous unique concepts that have not been explored. How does one approach the design of distinctive puzzle experiences?

Carlsen: To be honest, I'm not sure. When working on a game like Cocoon, our production process doesn't involve playing other puzzle games or seeking inspiration from them. However, I have been designing puzzles for a long time, so this was not a new challenge for me. My approach involves immersing myself into a "puzzle bubble" of sorts and brainstorming different ideas, aiming to create problem-solving scenarios that feel fresh and unfamiliar to me.

The process of creating puzzle games is not heavily research-oriented. Instead, it involves a more introspective approach, where one can engage in daydreaming and contemplation while walking around. While the puzzles are eventually built and tested on a computer, many of the ideas come from exploring the possibilities of worlds within worlds during walks on the street. This organic process often leads to the emergence of the best ideas.

Designing something truly unique and interesting can be challenging when sitting in front of a level editor with tools. While it is possible to create puzzles that technically serve the purpose, personally, I find it necessary to take breaks from the computer. I believe that part of the uniqueness stems from our commitment to solving all the problems ourselves, rather than solely relying on other puzzle games for inspiration. This involves constantly evaluating and improving our designs, asking questions such as "why is this not working" or "how can this be better."

As a puzzle game designer for over 13 years, I must confess that I am not particularly enthusiastic about playing challenging puzzle games myself, particularly the hardcore ones. While I do hold a great deal of respect for them, I simply lack the patience for such extremely difficult games. If I invest the effort to solve a challenging puzzle, I expect the reward to be significant, not just a mere "You did it!" There must be something more, and that is the driving force behind many of the puzzles in Cocoon. A satisfying reward is essential. Naturally, the reward comes in the form of progressing through visually stunning and captivating environments. Additionally, a crucial aspect of a rewarding puzzle can be that "aha" moment, which is a truly special experience.

However, when it comes to tackling a complex puzzle that involves a convoluted state machine with countless possible states to explore and search through, it begins to feel more like work to me. Personally, I do not find as much appreciation for it.

We took a different approach with the puzzles in Cocoon, ensuring they are not unnecessarily complex. Moreover, the rewards for solving them are substantial.

Q: Although the gaming industry seems focused on producing a large volume of content, Cocoon offers a more concise and targeted experience. How did you determine the duration of the game? Were there any puzzle mechanics or sections that you chose to eliminate?

Kho: Oh god [laughing].

Carlsen: There were sections that were cut, but…

Kho: The cuts we made were necessary.

Carlsen: We found cutting things beneficial as it reduces production, but the main reason we removed a substantial part from the organic world was to improve pacing. Originally, there was an organic vehicle with lengthy legs that allowed players to navigate and rest on various islands. Each island contained puzzles to solve. Upon completing the puzzles, players would obtain a winged key that could be inserted into the creature. Eventually, the creature would break apart and soar out of a cave.

Kho: The only remaining part is set in the natural cave. Inside, there are two small robots holding an orb, which they then insert into a slot. This causes the orb to transform into a jellyfish-like creature that surrounds and carries you. After a short journey, it separates from you and flies to the surface. That's how Jeppe described the end of the sequence. However, the entire sequence of moving from one island to another was eliminated. How many months did we spend working on that?

Carlsen: Quite a long time. Our animator, who also serves as our programmer, had to code the legs in a way that they could create platforms of varying heights, ensuring that the landscape would be interesting. Additionally, each island had to have a distinct style, as the player could choose to visit them in any order. It was important for players to know which islands they had already visited and which ones were still left, so a significant amount of artistic work was required.

My main motivation for addressing this issue was the pacing. In a game like Cocoon, pacing is crucial to keep players engaged and motivated to progress. One of the defining elements of Cocoon's magic is the frequent shifts between different worlds. These changes in context are essential for the game's pacing to be effective. However, we encountered a problem where there was a prolonged sequence within one world that lacked this context shift. It became evident when a person from the publisher's side played an early version of the game and mentioned getting stuck in the middle of this sequence because it felt too dragged out.

Therefore, the primary goal was to make the overall experience feel right. It was important to ensure that the pacing was tight and strong, even if it meant the game might feel slightly shorter. This was partially based on personal preference, but our main aim was to keep the players engaged by avoiding any moments that felt excessively drawn out. We wanted to maintain a strong hold on their attention and prevent them from losing interest.

Does Geometric Interactive have any future plans for Cocoon, considering the overwhelmingly positive reviews it has garnered on Steam since its release in September?

Carlsen: Apart from that, there's nothing more we would want readers to know.

Schmid: The game is available on all platforms except iOS and Android, ensuring everyone can enjoy it.

Carlsen: This game is highly accessible, even for those who typically wouldn't be interested in this genre. It may come as a surprise to discover that the experience is easily grasped, as it only requires one stick and one button. This simplicity may not be evident when watching a game trailer, making it appear more complex than it actually is.

Schmid: The game is unbelievably user-friendly. Even as you progress further into the game, the cleverly designed puzzles trick you into grasping the more intricate concepts effortlessly.

Carlsen: From a standpoint of game design, this idea is undoubtedly the most intricate one I have ever encountered or created. Therefore, it seemed logical to me that the more intricate you desire something to be, the simpler it must also be made. When crafting puzzles with a highly intricate nature, it is satisfying to balance that complexity with accessibility.

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Cocoon is currently available for PC, PlayStation 4, PlayStation 5, Switch, Xbox One, and Xbox Series X|S.